Saturday, March 18, 2006
Music - Part 2
I am writing in response to a comment left on one of my post. To read, check comments under UBC Choir. Since I have the faintest clue who the author of that response was, I feel I have a little freedom to respond, even more so since it is my blog;) I would agree with the author on some aspects, maybe one, but disagree on others. I agree fully that some songs are overused simply because they are easy to sing and you can sing them without any practice at all. With that I agree. I think many time we see the lack of professionalism in our special singing due to this mindset. I greatly disagree with the statement that , "southern gospel has dumbed down our worship". It is clearly evident that the author is a fan of "classical" style music, and I, me, Matt Ellison, can't stand it. I prefer the "southern gospel" style. One of my favorite choirs is the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. For the most part I like their style, but occasionally they put in their a song that in very unfamiliar, but worshipful, and I grow to like it just as well as the gospel style songs. I am not against that. What I was meaning in my previous post was, I have set in services where the choir sang 80 - 90 percent songs that were unfamiliar to everyone in the congregation. The people left "unfulfilled" in their spirit. To me, that is the purpose to come to church, to worship and be touched. No I have not attended seminary for music and I may not be as educated in music as this author, but I do still have a strong opinion. By the way, I didn't realize Bach was one of our godly fore-fathers. I understand he was involved in many things that we as Christians do not accept. God may still have used some of his music, but on the other hand, He Touched Me, by Bill Gaither has been used just as greatly.
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21 comments:
So the point isn't whether it's classical or southern gospel, but "Is it worshipful?" I understand what you mean when you don't know the song, it's hard to be "moved" in your spirit. But that's what the words are for. You can listen to the words and as long as they cause you to worship God, it doesn't matter if it's Bach or Bill Gaither - as long as the style of music compliments the words.
Ditto's to Doug! I can agree to this thought. The discussion, yes, is probably useless, but none-the-less, in my opinion, and concerning my preference, I stick by my first observation, worship is better accomplished when people know the songs. This is my last and final thought.
Yeah--It's preference. It's like going to a restuarant. Some people prefer something new and different and others prefer something traditional and familiar. (Jon gives Matt a handclap of praise)
Matt you just had to be controversial... it's so unlike you...
By the way, I agree with you 100%. It's amazing the difference singing a song people understand makes...There's nothing wrong with choirs singing new songs, just sing songs that aren't a bunch of the "high flutin'" (to quote you) type of music that only a few people (who think there smarter than everyone else) listen to.
By the way, is the "Anonymous" individual suggesting that the UBC choir didn't practice? Also, does it have to be by Bach to be used of God? It sounded like to me that God used some non "high-flutin" music at your church this week. Imagine that...God using the foolish things of this world to confound the wise...
There's nothing wrong with new songs, or a few "high-flutin" ones every now and then. But all in all, give me the familiar songs and some from the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir - that's all I ask.
Matt, thanks for getting everyone dandruff up. It helps keep life intresting.
Is it snowing or is that just the dandruff settling back down?
A music debate! I love music debates! :-)
Seriously, our church music does matter. I do agree that there is "wiggle room" for different tastes and different styles...and no I don't think that you can prove from Scripture that ____ genre of music is the most Biblical.
However, I do believe that both the lyrics and the music do matter to God just as in communication it's not just the words you use it's also the tone they are used in. Just like a smiley face in e-mail completely changes the tone of a sentence from a harsh attack to good-natured ribbing.
So there are some forms of music (eg. Christian rock) that I just couldn't accept, because no matter how great the words, the "tone" in which it is communicated belies sincere worship.
So...generally I agree with Matt, and Jon does have a valid point that there can be (and probably should be!) different preferences & styles in music...but to a limit.
So to sum up. If you don't agree with me you are a heretic. :-) (Good think I changed the tone of that last sentence!)
I personally prefer Yiddish ballads sung to calypso rhythms.
Oh by the way, here are some verses emphasizing the importance of new songs. It all needs to be balanced. All new songs CAN hinder worship, but no new songs keep us in a "rut".
Hopefully we can keep this music debate going until none of us are friends any longer. :-)
Ps 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
Ps 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Ps 96:1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
Ps 98:1 O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Ps 144:9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.
Ps 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. {Praise...: Heb. Hallelujah}
Isa 42:10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Re 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
My personal preference in Bach.
Joel, I am sorry to hear that you only agree with me "...to a limit." See if I ever cross the street to hear you preach (of course right now I would have to cross about 6 states and Canada so don't count on me showing up on Sunday) :-)
By the way, I agree with you about "Christian" rock. I am competly opposed to it. We are however, about to begin a Christian rap service at my church. :)
Actually, I would like it to go on the record that my church is the first conservative holiness church to go to acoustic worship.
I'm not Matt, so I don't claim to speak for him but I think the whole point of what he was saying was that he wished choirs would sing songs more easily understood by those of us "uneducated" people :-)
I am defintely not opposed to singing new songs. I must also say that I prefer some of the hymns over some of the gospel songs. I think if I had my way I would sing "All Hail the Power of Jesus Name" every Sunday morning. I do agree that some of the gospel songs we sing are somewhat pointless. However, if you come to my church on an average Sunday morning and sing all "high-flutin" songs 3/4 of my congregation won't understand a word of it because 3/4 of my congregation are new to the church. Therefore, there must be a balence. As Bro. Cooley said (over and over again) :) "there's a balenced tension here."
I would like to thank Johann Sebastian for sharing his personal preference with us. Thank you :-)
...one more thing I probably should add before the gossip starts about how wordly my church is...the only reason we have acoustic worship is because I don't have anyone to play the piano except for on Sunday mornings. So I have a man who sits on the front pew and plays his guitar and I play my trumpet. Just thought I should add that...
This was fun until I accidentally sent my last comments into space. (I am sure that is where all of you think they belong! HA!) If this shows up twice, I apologize.
Joel, you are a riot, and I enjoy your humor! I also love the "debate."
If it would stop the hyperventilating, I would like to announce that I have family members that graduated from UBC, am a friend of Jerry Glick and love Brooklyn Tab. (When did they qualify for the "Southern Gospel" logo?!) I also believe I am being referred to as "Highfalutin." (The previous "'hi-flutin'" sounds like something a KY musician does!)So, if it will stabilize blood pressures, I would also like to announce that I spent some of my formative years in SD with Michelle Adair Earls, and one of my favorite things is to sit around a fire with Indians and cowboys strumming on their guitars. (Yes, we now pause for you to gasp!) On the other hand I can THOROUGHLY love the beauty, quality, musicianship, skill. . .of orchestral pieces. It is called being diverse and having a well rounded mind. (Did you every ponder the fact budding students are instructed in "classical" and not "Southern Gospel?")
Back to my point, our worship has fallen on the subjective side, and I prefer the objective. Matt, you proved my point by referring to yet another subjective piece "He Touched Me." A song about you and your feelings. Yes, we need this at times, but not the overload in which we find our churches. I prefer "God of Wonders," "When I Survey," "The Heart of Worship". . . It is not about me and how I feel. It is about God and Who He is.
Thanks for the blog fun! I doubt I will have much time to repsond again. I have a wedding to accompany, so I need to practice. Let's see. . ."Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring," "Canon in D". . .Let's throw in a Josh Groban piece. . .
I'd like to see more drums. I like drums. They had drums in the old testament. I think drums would be a good thing to go along with choir music. Drums enhance the music. The Brooklyn Tabernacle has drums, I'm pretty sure. It sounds like it to me. There's nothing wrong with drums.
Thanks,
Chuck.
Wow! I'm away for two days and look what I miss. This reminds me so much of Bible College days and this "debate" would come up frequently. Joel, thanks for the references to "new song" throughout the scripture. I've used some of those references many times myself. I particularly like Rev. 5:9. That whole portion of scripture there is so beautiful. But with the idea of a "new song" verses "old song" the "debate" will never end. I've heard all my life statements like "the new songs now-a-days just don't mean as much as the old songs." Oh reallly? So a song like "Broken and Spilled Out" wouldn't have the same theological insight as "I've Got a Mansion Just Over the Hilltop." Now I know that is an extreem example but like I said we could go on and on because there are some new songs that are very light and chaffy. But I believe God can be and is worshiped in many different types of music. For me to walk into a church of a different culture and tell them their music with drums, tamborines, electric guitars and jazz sax is not worshiping God would be arrogant and foolish. We all worship God in our own ways. Which brings me to my final point. I appreciated a statment made by "anonymous." Worship is "not about me and how I feel. It is about God and who He is." I have also used that in a message at my church. It's not what we can get out of it but it's what we can give back to God. But worship, which music is a great part of, is done from a heart and life devoted to God. And it is done in the way we know best.
Now that I've added my two cents, in the words of Tiny Tim "God Bless us, everyone."
Matt, what is the next debate, captitol punishment?
Don't ask me why I continuing this debate - I guess because I don't have much of an opportunity to debate since I graduated.
One last comment on this issue. In my original post when I said,
"There's nothing wrong with new songs, or a few "high-flutin" ones every now and then. But all in all, give me the familiar songs and some from the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir - that's all I ask."
I was speaking specifically about choir music in choir services since this is what Matt originally posted about. The discussion later progressed into more of a church music debate.
On this issue, I agree with most everyone whose commented on it. I also believe that Gospel songs have their place but I do love the old great hymns. I am definetly not opposed to new songs in the church. Worship definetly is all about God and not about us. I will come right out and say that I do like some of the modern worship music. I wish that God had gifted me with the ability to write new songs and to play the piano like Johann so that we could have some new songs to sing in church.
So, to sum up my opinion. When I hear one of our Bible College choirs, I prefer to hear some songs that I know , and not a bunch "high-flutin" ones few understand. Instead of the 80% of songs being unfamiliar as Matt talked about, I would rather see 80% of familiar songs and 20% unfamiliar.
Comprende?
Wow! Some debate and I get so tired of them :) Lots of wonderful things said, and I do believe that most of us would hold to those things. Jesus gave us music so we could worship Him! I'm just thankful that we don't always have to listen to BACH and nothing else. I don't think I would listen to music very often then. :) I love Bach, mind you, but, I'm a good old Southern gal, and other kinds of music connect with me more...even though I did complete a Music degree and am now teaching music.
Thanks Matt for your support :) We do all love you, I'm sure! I just still want to know if "anonymous" was in our service at New Columbia?
I am personally offended by the above comment. I only listen to Bach.
WWBD
What would Bach do?
Bach's music was overrated.
Bach music is crazy!!!!!!!!!
No one person is the same as the next person and therefore all kinds of preferences exist. So what? There are many different styles and ways to be creative and worship God musically. He made all the variety in this world and he made us creative like himself. Don't you think he is simply pleased when we truly worship him in our own way regardless of the genre?
-a passerby
All singing in churches should cease.
I like the idea of hand-clapping only,
and sign language instead of words.
For your consideration,
I am concerned with the growth/lack thereof that I see our music. I am sure that those of us who are pastors would like a saint of ten years to understand and feed on a somewhat higer level of preaching than last weeks convert. In the same manner, I would hope that those of us who have so much exposure to the gospel song would be able to grow our appetites to include something with more substance.
In regards to the "familiar" aspect of gospel music, I would like to remind us that the majority of newcomers off the street would find gospel music unfamiliar. It is possible that they would find the "high-flutin" music more familiar.
In the college choir setting, I would like to remind us that it is a COLLEGE choir - not a community choir. Most people go to college to learn. Yes, I know that learning is valueless unless we can communicate it. However, that is what singing is about - communicating knowledge or experiences. IF we are uneducated, should we be content to remain that way? Shouldn't we want to learn from others? If your answer is "no, I don't want to learn from others," then why would you go to church or read your Bible at all. No, I do not want to see anyone stop these activities, but my point is that we should be learning. A college choir should be able to show some learning, and that learning should include an exposure to a wide variety of Christian music.
I was not at the choir service mentioned, but I know Brother Glick, and I greatly appreciate his level of musicianship. I have occasionally wondered how limited he and others in his position must feel because of the appetites of our audiences/congregations.
Finally, I would like to note (for Chuck's sake) that the percussion instruments in the Old Testament were used to mark the pauses in the music.
Live and learn -
David
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